DJ: John McFee, thanks so much for doing this.

John: Happy to be here. Thank you.

DJ: What part of California are you in? I think you’re originally from Santa Cruz, right?

John: Yeah, I’m, I’m from Santa Cruz originally, but I’ve kind of lived all over the state. But I’ve been,  here where I am now. I’ve lived in the same house for over 45 years now, and it’s in,  Santa Barbara County in the Santa Ynez Valley.

DJ: Nice. Well, in your early life, before you got to the age where you started playing in bands and all that, were there any particular bands or types of music you were drawn to maybe even when you were a kid?

John: Well, yeah. Well growing up, you know, my dad, I grew up in this California culture of the oil field culture of,  you know, my dad was an oil field roughneck by day, but he also played music. You know, he, he was a musician too, so he had me playing ukulele before I could walk, you know, so,  I, I grew up playing and my, until The Beatles came out, all I ever heard or played was country music. That was what my dad liked, and that’s what all of you know, I was exposed to. And I really, and I still’s my, that’s my roots and that’s,  some of my favorite stuff still, you know. But,  so that’s my, my strongest influence is probably in the early,  years of developing as a musician or, or definitely country.

DJ: Yeah, the ukulele was the first stringed instrument I grabbed. My parents had a, ukulele that I still have 

John: Mm-hmm. 

DJ: And that was the first time I, first time I plunked around or anything when I was little.

John: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a good, starting point. Yeah.

DJ: Yeah. Well, fast forwarding too, like when Clover was formed, weren’t you still in your teens at that point?

John: Yes. Yeah, I was, you know, I,  you know, like I said, I started young. So when, you know, the Beatles came out, it was like, Hey, everybody wanted to have a band, and hey, the McFee kid, he already knows how to play. Let’s get him in our band. So that’s kind of how I got, started being, you know, exposed to rock and roll and, and other styles, you know, blues and jazz and, and other things too. So that, it really, that was good for me, I think. But I, you know, started playing little bands and then the next thing I knew, you know, just I ended up really hitting it off with the guys in Clover. We formed a bond and, and a band and a bond. And,  you know, that was a, project I really believed in and stuck with for quite a while, you know, and, I also, I started being heard by other players and being hired as starting at a pretty early age as well. Still a teenager for session work. And so I ended up doing a lot of session work, through the years as well. So, you know, just

DJ: Yeah, I was gonna say, looking through your discography and all the people in bands you played with, it’s just kinda, it’s incredible. but yeah, it’s,

John: When I look at it, sometimes it surprises me. Wow I did that?

DJ: We will get to this too, but I know guitar is not the only instrument you play, but, um. Well, when I was in my late teens, I discovered that the local library had a lot of really great albums I could borrow. I’m still living at home with my parents,  and I discovered like Brinsley Schwarz albums and that was like my introduction to Nick Lowe. And, but one, one day I’m flipping through the vinyl bins at our local library and I discovered My Aim Is True. And even just that album cover like kind of grabbed me like, what is this? Um. So when I was really young and that album got me so hooked on Elvis Costello that I bought everything he would release for years. And because, you know, when you’re, when you’re really fixated on, on a band or a musician. I, I wanted to know everything about him. I want, you know, I knew his real name, you know, Declan McManus and all that, where he was from, and I knew, but I also knew on that first album that he was backed by Clover and not The Attractions.

John: Right. 

DJ: But even knowing that, it was quite a while that I realized you were not only the guitarist, but you played like lead guitar on the classic “Alison” and “(The Angels Wanna Wear My) Red Shoes”. Like such classic, iconic songs that, like I said, it was, I have to confess it was years before I was like, oh, that wasn’t, that was actually John McFee.

John: Pretty funny, there’ve been moments when we, I’ve played live with Elvis when we play “Alison” and when, when we’re done he says, “You didn’t think I played all that did you?” Because he’s pretty funny. He’s got a good sense of humor about it as well. But yeah, that was really a fortunate,  little happenstance in my life, I feel. Really lucky to have hooked up with Nick Lowe and Elvis and all that. you know,

it’s important relationship in my life, you know, that, that whole thing. So…

DJ: Well, you’re right that he has a great sense of humor. I’ve, I think I figured out that. I think I’ve seen Elvis Costello in concert more than any other person I’ve seen in concert over the years. And he, I just love, you know, his banter between songs and everything is so great.

John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he’s really a great guy. Very interesting, and obviously intelligent, and so, it’s always worth listening to in many ways.

DJ: Well, Nick Lowe, who I discovered when I got into Brinsley Schwarz produced My Aim is True, and I believe it was mostly recorded, kinda live in the studio with maybe vocals overdub, but you guys kind of played a lot of that just in the studio, right?

John: Almost all of it is live. And including the lead vocals, some of those lead vocals Elvis would sing in the studio and with the band while we were playing the, the, the vocals that made it to the final product.

Nick, I, there’s I, um, as far as my playing, not one note is punched in, it’s all completely live, played with the drums and bass and everything and keyboards. As we’re tracking and Elvis was playing rhythm and, and singing you know, it’s more of a live album than anything that’s been called a live album in probably 30 or 40 years, you know?

DJ: That’s so cool.

John: And that was, I, I, I credit Nick for having the. The vision there of like, Hey, no, I’m gonna keep it real. And he was, I was begging him to let me redo things, you know?

DJ: Right.

John: And he says, no, no, I, this is it. It feels good. And he’s so right. I, you know, once I got away from it for a week even, I’m going, it does feel good, you know?

DJ: Well, you appeared on several more Elvis Costello albums over the years and also appeared on Nick Lowe’s, Jesus of Cool. You know, also, you know, we, a lot of people know that as Pure Pop for Now People, but, you played the lead on…

John: Both, both great titles. (Laughs)

DJ: Yeah, oh, absolutely. Huge Nick, Lowe fan as well. Um, so no, I think you played on “Tonight” on that album.

John: Yeah. I played on, I guess I, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m kind of not. Totally sure on exactly which tracks. ’cause we were, there was all this, there was a lot going on back then, but I remember one of the first ones, Nick, he was trying to get out of a record deal at one point, and so he did a, and he did, uh. He did, he recorded a song about the Bay City Rollers.

DJ: Oh.

John: And it, and it went to like number one in Japan or something. So it was a failure for getting him out of his record deal. But he did, I played on his follow up of that, which was, I think was called “Rollers”. One of ’em was called “Bay City Rollers, We Love You”. The one I played on the first, the first one was called “Roller Show”.

DJ: And then, maybe around that same period you played on, “Radio Sweetheart” by Elvis Costello.

John: That was really, that was actually the first track we cut on the, My Aim Is True sessions, believe it or not.

DJ: Okay. So that was recorded early, but included later. That’s great!

John: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when we, um. When you talk about Brinsley Schwarz, I don’t know if you know this association with my band Clover. The Clover thing was a lot of the reason we ended up moving to England, and that’s how I first met Nick Lowe and, that whole thing started. But Brinsley Schwarz even had a song that Clover was in the lyrics. “Gonna saddle up and ride away on them hills where Clover played.” And so they were, they were Clover fans and that’s how we ended up backing Elvis on the My Aim Is True project. Elvis was a fan. He was, he had been performing Clover songs in his live concerts when he was still Declan McManus, you know?

DJ: That’s great. Yeah, I was very thrilled. I ended up talking to Brinsley Schwarz, I think it was last, early last year. He was really great. Yeah. We did an an international call. Yeah. And he was great to talk to. Been a, just such a hero of mine since I, like I said, when I was a teen, Well over the years you were getting a lot of work, as you mentioned, as a session musician providing vocals for a lot of bands and artists and even producing at times.

John: Mm-hmm. 

DJ: One of your talents is engineering. At what point did you get into that aspect, or, when did you have time to learn that with all the work you were getting?

John: Well, actually, it, it really happened because, as I started doing session work, pretty quickly I noticed I was I going, why do I sound better? You know, why do I sound, I’m playing through the same gear, I’m the same player. Why does my stuff sound better when I record this studio with this engineer and stuff like that? And so I said, it’s gotta be something they’re doing. So I started paying attention to the engineering and that’s, that’s kind of how it all started. I, I, early on and I, I always, from the earliest stage when before people, before very many artists really even had their own studios. I had this. I did in my head. I wanna have my own studio so I can control this stuff and have more freedom. You know? So I just saw a lot of pluses to, educating myself and learning how to,  do the recording part and, and what was, goes into it and what works and what doesn’t, and so forth, you know? And,  you know, there’s a lot to it. So it’s, I’m still trying to learn, you know.

DJ: Well, I was into so many things when I was young, as I sounds like you were too, but so many types of music and so many bands. I was way into Steely Dan and of course, way into Skunk Baxter. And in the late seventies, you know, Skunk left the Doobie Brothers, I think it was in the late seventies. And, about that time you joined the band after Skunk was out, playing guitar and providing vocals on their album One Step Closer.

John: Right. Yeah, I, that’s when Jeff left. That’s when I, you know, it was right when Clover, you know, when, when we moved to England, it, it was,  because we, you know, we had, we had done some records for, we had signed to the Fantasy label in the Bay Area back in the sixties and did, did two albums for Fantasy and that we, that never really did anything. And we just, you know, and then after that deal expired, we were always on the. Verge of the inception of the beginning of starting to get a new record deal, but never quite getting one, you know? And  at a certain point we got a phone call out of the blue from this guy with a British accent. He says, I’m a drummer.

I’m over here playing with John Stewart. And I’m just a fan of the records you guys did on Fantasy. I’d love to meet you and Huey Lewis and Alex Call and I lived in a house together in Mill Valley, up in Marin County. And he was so nice. He said, yeah, I got your number from a bloke down here at the Old Mill Tavern and you know, I’d love to meet you. So we told him how to get to our house. He came and, and that’s when we, and he said, it’s not just me. There were a bunch of musicians in Britain that think you guys were the best and we’re, and we were in shock ’cause we didn’t even know the records had been released anywhere outside of the States and they did nothing in the States. So this was a big surprise to us. He says, as a matter of fact. I have some friends that have the number one album in the UK right now. They’re gonna be playing at, Winterland. Next week is okay if I pass your information onto to them. We said, sure. Well that’s how we met Nick Lowe. ’Cause Nick was traveling. It was the group was Dr. Feelgood. and so we met those guys and Nick was traveling with them and they were being tour managed by a guy named Andrew Jakeman, who is also known as Jake Riviera. And Jake said, look, if I can get you, I’m starting a management company with an Irish bloke named Dave Robinson. We can get you guys a record deal. Would you be willing to relocate to the UK and let us manage you? So that’s how we ended up moving to the UK and doing all that stuff. and by the way, the drummer that called us out of the blue was Pete Thomas.

DJ: Oh, wow. 

John: Later of The Attractions and still playing with Elvis Costello. Although he wasn’t the drummer on the first album, but he’s, he was such a, he’s, changed my life more than any other person. I think ever with that little phone call out of the blue. But that’s how we started out, you know,  that’s how it came to pass. Anyway, when we moved at a certain point, our record deal ran out and Dave and Jake were breaking up their management thing and, and, and they were selling the Stiff Records products and they were arguing over who got to manage what artists. So we moved back to the states, but we were in limbo ’cause we couldn’t proceed till things were resolved. And that was at the point when Jeff Baxter left the Doobies. And, and I found out kind of sideways that they were looking for a new guitarist with the, and I knew some of the guys, and they were gonna ask me, but I’d turned down so many offers. They were, they had decided, well, McFee would never take it. He’s still, she’s so loyal to Clover. But we, I couldn’t do anything with Clover at the time, and my son had just been born so I called up Keith Knudsen and said, Hey, you know, if you guys are interested, I’ll, I’m willing to give it a shot. I’ll come audition. So that’s how it came to pass that I replaced Jeff. I went and auditioned and they said, if you want it, you’ve got it on the day. I auditioned. And that’s, that’s how it all started with the Doobies.

DJ: Wow. Well before I, I got distracted when you, um, mentioned Fantasy. I kind of flashed on. I’ve still got,  a little stack, at least a few, 45 records on Fantasy, Creedence stuff.

John: Yeah.

DJ:  Creedence Clearwater Revival…

John: Right.

DJ:  I love those guys and I know I’ve, I’ve got a handful of those 45s right here,

John: Yeah. Yeah. They were, they were great. They, we were, we were label mates, but we were also friends and used to do things together. A few bands, I think probably had a, a special bond with Creedence because,  in the Bay Area, in, in a lot of ways we were, I, I don’t know if we were, I still go so far to say we were the only ones, but we were some of the only groups that were not trying to be psychedelic, particularly at all, or who were more roots oriented is I should say, is really what it was about. So we appreciated that, you know, what, we were each other were doing in terms of like trying to be true to a certain musical roots and traditions and so forth.

DJ: Oh right. You mentioned Keith Knudsen, and I know Keith passed away quite a while back, right?

John: Yeah. It’s been a while now. Yeah.

DJ: And, but you and Keith, formed Southern Pacific along with, speaking of Creedence with Stu Cook,  on bass. 

John: Right. 

DJ: I guess that was shortly after all this, I lose track of the chronology ’cause you were involved in so many things.

John: Many things. Yeah. Well, when I joined the, the Doobies in the late seventies, we, the, the band broke up by like ’83. And so after that, Keith and I, we’d been doing a lot of country sessions and Tim Goodman, who was the original lead singer in what became Southern Pacific, was really the guy that pushed for it, says, why don’t we do some stuff of our own? You know, we’re backing up all these other artists. Let’s, let’s do some country stuff of our own. And for me, I, the idea was very attractive because,  like I say, that’s my roots ’cause it’s in country music. So. I liked the idea. And, the next thing we knew, you know, we got signed to Warner Brothers in Nashville and started putting records out. Little side note you might find interesting that, when Southern Pacific was first forming, we weren’t called Southern Pacific for one thing. We’re calling ourselves the Tex Pistols.

DJ: [laughs]

John: And, and we, we had to, we had to cha we had to change. We got threatened to be sued by the  Sex Pistols’ manager. Malcolm McLaren, or whatever his name was anyway, um, so we had to change our name, but, but the, I wasn’t playing guitar. I was playing pedal steel and, and violin. And the guitar for the original guitar player was James Burton.

DJ: Oh, man.

John: And when James left, Albert Lee was there for a minute. And then when Albert had got, you know, those guys had other gigs pulling them away from the, this kind of risky venture of starting a new band. So by the time we were really finding I, I’ve taken over on guitar and steel and, and violin. So anyway, but it all evolved out of doing country sessions for other artists. So, you know…

DJ: Well, the Roky Erickson tribute album Where the Pyramid Meets the Eye, featured one of Southern Pacific’s, with their cover of “It’s a Cold Night for Alligators”.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Well that was, that was, that was towards the end of Southern Pacific when we were approached to do that. And then, and Keith and Stu and I, we, we did that one. We called it Southern Pacific, but it was really, we did it without Kurt Howell. Not because we didn’t want Kurt there, but because he, he was living in Nashville and we, Keith and Stu and I were living in California, Southern California area. So it was easier for us to get together. So we tracked that and then they wanted, and, the Roky Erickson connection was really Stu, because Stu had produced some Roky’s stuff back in the day. And, so that, that’s kind of how we got drawn into cutting the track and doing it. And, but it’s also featured on our new Jackdawg release. 

DJ: Well, in the nineties, I guess it was you and Keith and Stu became Jackdawg and 

John: Mm-hmm. 

DJ: Really great self-titled album. Tell me a bit of how that all came to be, which I know you just led into that, but it was, it basically that you wanted, you know, the band to become,  have a new name, have maybe even a different sound than Southern Pacific.

John: Um, I wish I could say we had a real plan for as such, but, but, but it, but it was more just, you know,  Southern Pacific was, starting to wind down for various reasons and, oddly enough, I, it seems to be a recurring theme at points in my life that management issues you know, just kind of intrude upon. The processes of trying to do the music and, and so we were kind of starting to, we were in a point of somewhat limbo at Southern Pacific and like I say, Keith and Stu and I lived in relative proximity to each other. So we said, well, let’s, let’s just fool around with something else for a while, you know? And it, it wasn’t like this big giant plan, but it was like, like, well, we’ve been doing the Southern Pacific, you know, country oriented thing, but we all have rock,  backgrounds too. Let, let’s, let’s fool around with some rock for a while. So that’s how it started. And we just started cutting tracks, writing songs together and recording on here at my, my studio and, um, where we cut a lot of the Southern Pacific stuff and also by the way, where we cut quite a bit of Doobie Brothers stuff. but you know, we,  we were just having fun and experimenting and we, if there was a plan, it was to not have a plan more or less as far as. Let’s not restrict it stylistically. Let’s just do whatever feels like is fun. And so it ended up being pretty rock, you know?

DJ: Very much so. I love the sound of it and it, it consisted of mostly originals, but you did include a very cool and interesting take on “Wild Night” by Van Morrison. Tupelo Honey is another album I had for years before learning that you played pedal steel on that, 

John: Yeah, I played, I did two albums with Van back then, back in that era on Tupelo Honey and St. Dominic’s Preview. And, uh. You know, and, you know, that was a really fortunate, you know, circumstance for me too, to get to play with a guy that I kind of idolized really. And become friends with him. And he was always so nice to me. And, anyway, when we were fooling around with tracks, with what became Jackdawg, I don’t even remember who suggested that we cut “Wild Night”, but we started fooling around with it and, again, we did, the last thing we wanted to do was try to copy the version that I’d played on, you know, with Van, you know, the arrangement. So we just went, we went pretty far away from the original arrangement, but, there again, we were just, you know, experimenting and having fun.

DJ: That’s very cool. Well, there were some obstacles to getting the album released, which had to be incredibly frustrating. But now after all these years, Jackdawg has officially been released on vinyl CD as well as digital, and it is, as I mentioned, it’s such a great album. I really love it.

John: Well, thank you. Yeah. It’s, yeah, it, that’s through, well, you know, as I say, we, we really didn’t have any plan when we were coming up with the music other than just to finding music we liked and had fun doing. And the, and at a certain point at when we realized we had, God, we’ve got at least an album’s worth of materials here. Maybe we should see if anybody’s interested any record labels. And that was in the days when, back in the nineties, you know, you kind of had to have a record label really. so we, we were gonna proceed, , to try to do that and. we were talking about, well, who can, who can we have shop at? And we probably should have a manager, manager or somebody that knows the business to do this ’cause we’re just musicians. And, so I, I suggested Joe Gottfried, who was a gentleman that I knew from, Clover days. At one point we had signed a production agreement with Joe Gottfried, and Joe was the, founder and owner, one of of Sound City Studios in the LA area, one of the greatest studios ever. Fantastic studios. So many great records have been made there. We had worked with Joe Gottfried and I always liked Joe and he was a, I considered him to be one of the, you know, maybe some somewhat rare,  ethical and honest and, people in the music business that I would feel good about working with on something like the Jackdawg project and getting it, out to the public.

So we approached Joe to see if he was interested and he was so he was going to do it. And we were having talks and meetings and, and we were had, you know, trying to finalize the, the mixes or the music , and all of a sudden Joe passed away. And that, that really took some momentum out of us. And it, it happened right at a time too. I then, Keith and I were kind of being approached and drawn back into the Doobie Brothers. And Stu and Doug Clifford were talking about what turned into the Creedence Clearwater Revisited projects, I think. And so for whatever reason we, we kind of just, the Jackdawg music just kind of sat there for a number of years. ’Cause we got sidetracked with all these other, you know, back into these other projects. And then at a certain point, uh. a, a guy named Joey Stec had a company called Sonic Past Music, and he had somehow procured the rise of some of the recorders we had done when we were that Clover had done when we were under contract to Joe Gottfried. Some tracks we cut at Sound City Studios and he wanted was going to release ’em. So he contacted me and you know, I, I ended up being involved with trying to get that stuff prepped and out, you know, in Joey’s label, Sonic Past music. And, um, while we were doing this Clover and it got released, it’s called Clover, the Sound City Sessions, I believe. And, uh. While we were doing it, Joey said, have you got any other stuff that you done that’s, that’s never been released that you think, you know, you might wanna get out there to the public? So that’s how the original Jackdawg release happened with Joey. But that really, it never really got off the ground. Joey’s the company, his company was going through some changes at the time and it, it did, it did get released, but it was kind of like not particularly promoted or it was kind of an unknown release, a secret release.

DJ: Yeah, so it went out of print for a long time.

John: Yeah. And, and so all these years later, you know,  now, now with Liberty Hall, we’ve got a new release Jackdawg.

They were, they, they somehow, well Stu actually was the one who was in touch with the label that became interested in it. So now here it’s become a reality. Here it is.

DJ: That’s so great. Well, and you continue to tour with the Doobie Brothers. I believe there’s a Lincoln California show up in early December.

John: Yes. That’ll be the last show of the year, that show up there in Northern California. Mm-hmm.

DJ: I watch CBS Sunday Morning every week, and I did really enjoy The Doobie Brothers segment. They were, when they were talking about song, when they were talking about songwriting, you said, I think this is right. “The only thing harder than writing lyrics is putting words to music”.

John: Yes. That’s, that’s, that’s fun. I came up with that a while ago. I use it on occasion.

DJ: That’s great. Well, John McFee, it was so great to be able to talk with you.

John: Alright, well thanks for taking the time with me and gosh, yeah, maybe I’ll get to see you in person one of these days.

DJ: That would be fantastic. Thanks John.

John: Alright, well thank you again. Bye. Bye.

John: Hi, this is John McFee of the Doobie Brothers and Jackdawg, and you’re listening to Frets with DJ Fey.